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Presenter: Welcome to the Yoga Podcast. Keeping
it real, with your host Claudia Azula Altucher.
[Music Ends]
Claudia
Altucher: So hello, and welcome to the Yoga
Podcast. I am thrilled to have with me today David Garrigues. David
is the director of the Ashtanga Yoga School of Philadelphia. He's
one of a few teachers in the United States to be certified to teach the
ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga System by the late Pattabhi Jois who is the founder of
this system. He teaches workshops all over the world and he has
several instructional DVDs on the primary and the intermediate series of
ashtanga yoga, as well as a book that comes together with the DVD on the fourth
limb pranayama, the branch of breathing. And he has also recorded
two devotional or kirtan CDs called Jaya Sat Guru and Bad Man Bhakti.
David,
welcome. Thank you for joining us today in the Yoga Podcast.
David
Garrigues: Thank you for having me, Claudia.
Claudia Altucher: So
let me ask you a question right off the bat. Is Garrigues a Spanish
name? Do you have any Spanish connection?
David Garrigues: [Laughs] It's
a Basque name. So right near – it's in the Pyrenees Mountains
between France and Spain, but I think it's on the French side.
Claudia Altucher: Oh,
I see.
David Garrigues: Yeah [Laughs].
Claudia Altucher: So
we're not related. Not a chance [Laughs].
David Garrigues: I
don't think so. But I had a bass teacher once that he insisted it
was Garrigues. So who knows?
Claudia Altucher: Who
knows?
David Garrigues: Yeah [Laughs].
Claudia Altucher: Yeah [Laughs]. So
David, you started practicing yoga about 25 years ago. Is that fair
to say?
David Garrigues: Well,
even more.
Claudia Altucher: Even
more.
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: Can
you remember what brought you into it? What was it that – why
yoga? What happened?
David Garrigues: I
can remember it perfectly because it was a very amazing thing happened. I
was young. I was sixteen. So that was 30 – more than 35
years ago. A friend, he – I was a dishwasher. That was my
first job when I was sixteen years old at a restaurant.And
there's always an eccentric dishwasher that's, like, older, they – 'cause it's
just kind of a job you can do. And so there was another guy, a
dishwasher, an older guy, and he was into all kinds of crazy stuff, but he was
into yoga. And he took me out to a park and taught me the Surya
Namaskara, the Sun Salutation outside. I just – I loved it. I
thought it was incredible and I started doing it by myself outside on the beach
every morning.
Claudia Altucher: Where
were you then?
David Garrigues: I
was in West Seattle. I lived – I'm from Seattle and I lived on Alki
Beach in West Seattle, and I would go out in this little park and do it. And
I even wrote a paper about it in – for my school and I called it "The
World Is A Sacrament". So I got – it was very devotional and it
took – me, right away I took to it and was just sixteen years old and didn't
know anything about it. And I actually continued to practice the Sun
Salutation without knowing anything else about yoga for some years, actually.
Claudia Altucher: So
there was a devotional component that got you right away? You sensed
there was something in it for you?
David Garrigues: Yeah. Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: That's
very interesting.
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: Now,
if I may fast forward, you had this story recently. In the summer of
2013 you were driving in New Mexico and you had a pretty intense car
accident.
David Garrigues: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Claudia Altucher: And what happened? Tell me.
David Garrigues: Well,
it was a real freak thing because it was in the middle of summer in New Mexico
on the highway and was going reasonably fast and all of a sudden we came across
something I'd never encountered 'cause I'm not from there, but an unbelievable
hail storm. Radical. Giant balls of hail and a torrential
downpour. Unbelievable. It went from clear to like that
to you couldn't see twenty feet in front of you. And it was just –
the cacophony of weather. Whoa. And I tried to stop,
tried to put on the brakes, and it totally didn't work. We started
swerving totally out of control at 75 miles an hour. Totally out of
control.
And
so we were – fishtail to one side, and Joy's there next to me. She's
going, "We're okay." Then we swerved to the other
side. Three times. Just all the way across the road,
completely thinking –
Claudia Altucher: Oh,
my gosh.
David Garrigues: –
the thing was gonna – if it would have – it could have rolled. It
could have easily just caught and rolled. And then there was other
cars too that were off – that had already spun off to the – off the road. And
so finally it slowed down enough that it righted and we – and then – but I
ended up off of the road going really fast on the grass.
Claudia Altucher: Wow. Jeez.
David Garrigues: [Laughs] And
then finally it came to a stop and that wasn't over then because there was,
like, three feet of water. The car started sinking in the
water. And I tried to open it and it was like water started coming
in the car. So I – somehow I managed to back up and get out of it
and drove off and nothing happened. Not a scratch or anything, but…
Claudia Altucher: That's
almost a miracle 'cause when you go into water and mud backing off doesn't
just happen.
David Garrigues: No,
I know. It was [laughs]…
Claudia Altucher: That's
incredible. And I just want to say Joy [Marzec] is your partner
who's also an amazing yogi, movie director, and an amazing person. But
what I got from your newsletter is that when this was happening, which is
terrifying, you had some insights –
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: in this because you kind of confronted death right there.
David Garrigues: Yeah. Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: And
you said here, I have it, "In those few lucid moments, I saw my shadow
clearly and I saw that my shadow contributed to me being in this dire
situation. I saw the wrongness of my impatience, my continual
dissatisfaction, the kind that hinders, not helps." And
that's an eye-opening moment there. When you're confronted with
death, you…
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: It
really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: Well,
I'm glad you're here.
David Garrigues: Yes. And
it's amazing when that veil gets ripped out like that and how lucid that
is. And then when I talk to other people about it, it's so hard
because when the danger's over, you remember and you take something with you,
but then also, I don't know, it's so strange how that work, the maya, the
illusion. It's so easily comes back that you get impatient
again. But I definitely learned from that and it stuck what me, some
of that.
Claudia Altucher: I
guess that's why we call it a daily practice, having to come back to what's
real. "Okay, I'm still facing death. There's no need
to rush [Laughs]." It's very hard for me.
David Garrigues: Right. And
the practice exactly brings you back to that. Every
day.
Claudia Altucher: You also said something recently that caught my attention. When
it comes to the difference in practice through age, you say, "At 30 I want
more and more Asanas, I want more practice. At 40, I want my
pranayama." What happens as we age with the yoga practice as we
grow older?
David Garrigues: It's
not as much as I want my pranayama. It's more I definitely explored
the Asana in a different way and I'm not as drawn to the transitions. I'm
drawn to the Asana itself and to what – and to being there in that place. And
so – and that, to me, was, I guess, unexpected because of how physical I am and
how athletic I've been and just how much I love movement and dynamism and how
much – that's one of the reasons I really love ashtanga is the flow and the
real amazing transitions that link everything together.
But
certainly, aging has just made that less important, the flow and the
movement, and made the stillness and the breathing and the exploration of the
position – this is different than pranayama. It's actually like I'm
interested in the very basic shapes like triangle and shoulder stand and what
they reveal meditatively within internal awareness and consciousness and
breathing. And it's something very different than a sitting practice
or even a pranayama practice because it is still a shape, and it's something –
and there's variety involved in it. When you do inversions, that's
really different than a seated type of work. And so it's just coming
to love that more. And fewer Asanas.
Claudia Altucher: I
feel the same way. I'm 46 right now and I find that the more I step
on the mat and the pranayama practice grows, the breathing practice grows, then
it – I don't even need to do so many postures because you start to get kind of
more juice out of each of the postures. You identify new things
happening in the body. So I guess would you say the Asana has enough
in it to bring you inwards from being totally out there and thinking about
where the next paycheck comes from to going really to that central axis that
you talk about and to focus your energy within you?
David Garrigues: I
do. I say, for me, there's – because it's combining so many
important elements that – 'cause there is a seated kind of meditation type of
aspect that would not require Asana that – other than sitting, but it's more
than that because it is physically expressive. And I also liken – I
think Asana is yantra.
Claudia Altucher: What
is yantra? What does that mean?
David Garrigues: Yantra
is like mantra, but it's – so mantra is mind instrument, so it's a corolla of
the mind, a sacred sound that you utter. And
yantra is a – it has to do with form and order and a physical device for
meditation or shape. And so Asana is that. It's a shape
or a form, a certain ordered-pattern form and there's an aesthetic quality to
it to. That it has something compelling to the eye or to the
senses. And so for me, that's why the Asana can do what you're
saying. It draws you in completely because it has so much interest
for somebody that – I don't know. There's an aesthetic aspect to it,
right?
Claudia Altucher: Yes.
David Garrigues: And
that's included in movement and posture that is particularly compelling to me.
Claudia
Altucher: I was lucky enough to participate in one of
your workshops earlier this year and you were calling it a gesture. It's
not just a pose that you're doing. It's a gesture.
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: And
you said the difference between a beginner student and an intermediate student
– do you remember what you said? You said it's the gesture.
David Garrigues: It's
the…
Claudia Altucher: You
said is that you maintain these – I guess the yantra, we could say. Would
that be fair to say?
David Garrigues: Yeah. And
that the yantra – to make a yantra, a skillful yantra, is to make a
gesture. And that gesture has – like mudra, the word mudra, which is
an important…
Claudia Altucher: What
does that mean, mudra?
David Garrigues: Mudra
is – well, it means seal or it has many meanings, actually, but it means like a
stamp. So you – like a king when he signs his thing, he leaves his
stamp. That's a mudra. But it's also a gesture, like a
hand gesture they have. The classic mudras are like dancers. Indian
dancers do all the hand gestures or all mudras. And then in yoga
they have those – the classic ones too for meditation and things. But
it's a broader term that any – all the transitions between the postures in the
ashtanga system they're gestures. So you gesture between
the posture. And they're alternating, opposing patterns, those
gestures, that they're – so your gestures reveals one pattern when you inhale
and another pattern when you exhale, and those are opposing patterns.
But
then the Asana itself is a gesture. And in that way, it can be a
kind of very slow unfolding gesture. It could take ten minutes to
complete this gesture that is headstand or whatever you're working on.
Claudia Altucher: And
then these opposing forces that happen, say, for example in the down dog where
your heels are going to the ground and the seat bones are aiming towards the
ceiling or even in the headstand where you're inverted and everything is upside
down, learning to breathe in the face of these opposing forces, I guess that's
part of what yoga is all about, right? Even when you step off the
mat –
David Garrigues: Yeah. Yes.
Claudia Altucher: –
maintaining that equanimity. I think you talk about equanimity in
your book as well.
David Garrigues: Yeah. And
so that – and it's a very curious thing, opposing forces, because they – in one
sense, if you get – go right to the root of it, of yoga, the source of all that
is you is completely equanimous. In fact, it seemed as, like, all
equal, everything, like there's a unity that exists. And then what
actually starts kind of creation or manifestation is imbalance. So
form is based on imperfection and in that sense, like ignorance in a way. And
so those – and the opposing forces are the quintessential pair that come right
from that equanimity. And that – and so all the forms get created
from just those two original forms like the yin and yang.
And
so what's interesting is you have to use those opposing forces to get to the
unity, to get back to it, to kind of return to this source that we've
forgotten. And so the – that's how you do it, with breathing, with
the inhalation and the exhalation. And like what you're saying, by
stamping the heels down and lifting the sitting bones up or pushing the thigh
bones back as you resist. They're everywhere, those. And
then you learn how to use those to get, to find that center line, that elusive
middle that is dynamic.
Claudia Altucher: and I suppose when you add all of these elements and you just go to regular
practice, you step on the mat. But with this kind of knowledge, then
it becomes a whole exploration trip into just the Sun Salutation [Laughs]. It's
amazing how much can go into it, right?
David Garrigues: Totally. Yes.
Claudia Altucher: It's
incredible. You said that in the book "Vayu Siddhi", by the
way, that you wrote, and which to to me is total poetry. I find you to be a poet
because the descriptions are very vivid, there's a lot of – the way you write
is just very – it's very well written. And you said that the
inspiration for this book came to you during a period of immobilization.
David Garrigues: Yes.
Claudia Altucher: What
happened to you? How did this book come to life?
David Garrigues: =You
won't believe this. So we – it was after Guruji [Patthabhi Jois] passed away, my teacher. And the next time I went to India after he passed
away, I was supposed to go to Mysore and Joy and I got to Bangalore, that's the
city that you fly into to go to Mysore, and we – for some reason I couldn't go
there. I got totally – just I couldn't go. And so
we decided – I started looking for other places we could go and we ended up
going to this place really remote. It's called the Andaman
Islands. So it's a set of islands that are off the coast of – the
East Coast of India and they're completely remote. There's
Aboriginal tribes living on some of the islands. It's just crazy
wild and you have to get – you fly in a plane and then you go in a boat.
And
finally we – so we went there and I was gonna focus on my practice and we ended
up staying at this place where there was a yoga shala up – you walked up these
stairs and it overlooked the jungle and everything. And so I was
amazingly stoked for this kind of time just to retreat and do that. And
then I also – there was surfing there [Laughs]. So I got
a little bit distracted with some surfing. And for some reason, a
really – I don't know, within one week, less than a week, I was working on
Twist, the stand –
Claudia Altucher: I'm
not even gonna ask what that is. I'm not sure I want to know [Laughs].
David Garrigues: Well,
it's a twist, but I trenched my back, tweaked it really bad.
Claudia Altucher: Oh.
David Garrigues: I
could barely walk.
Claudia Altucher: Wow.
David Garrigues: And
there we were stuck. There was nowhere we were gonna go for one
month. There's no…
Claudia Altucher: Was
there Internet?
David Garrigues: There
was Internet if you drove to the other side of the island.
Claudia Altucher: Oh,
wow. It was really remote.
David Garrigues: Yeah. Really
remote.
Claudia Altucher: And
you were on your back laying down?
David Garrigues: I
was on my back. I could not walk up to that yoga shala. And
for one month with no Internet, no nothing. And I had planned – I
had arranged it all to practice. That was my whole thing. And
so what I did, though, is I practiced on my back, breathing and sitting in dandasana with my feet on at the wall and…
Claudia Altucher: That's
sitting up with the legs straight out, right?
David Garrigues: Straight.
Claudia Altucher: With
your feet on the wall.
David Garrigues: Yep.
Claudia Altucher: And
did you also visualize the Asana practice? Some people talk about
visualizing your practice. Is this something you do or…
David Garrigues: I
don't think so. Not too much. No. I
did – I approximated kind of – in a way I visualized it, but not in a literal
way. Not like going through the practice in my mind.
Claudia Altucher: Then
you had an opportunity to go in the breathing limb, the fourth limb of yoga,
and to really – I guess you had a whole month to…
David Garrigues: I
couldn't move. So that got eliminated. "Sorry,
David. No more Asana. What are you gonna do
now?" Well, I'm gonna breathe. And then in that DVD,
there's two disks and one disk is a preparation for the second disk, which is
the ashtanga-pranayama sequence. But all of those preparation things
came from that month. That's the kind of thing I was exploring doing
it. And no, it was an amazing – it changed my whole world from that
intensive month.
Claudia Altucher: I
wonder if you had –
an opportunity to really kind of achieve the fifth limb of yoga where the
senses really withdraw by having so much time, no Internet. Did that
somewhat happen? Can you tell us? I don't even know if
it's okay to ask that [Laughs].
David Garrigues: I
don't know. I don't know about that. I feel – yeah, I'm
not sure.
Claudia Altucher: Not
sure. But however, we did get "Vayu Siddhi" out of this,
which is an incredible book. And I read it twice now. I
particularly –like it not only for the descriptions of the ways in which you do pranayama, but I like the stories at the end. You have some stories
about the gods fighting. And you have some stories about – personal
stories about you with Pattahbi Jois that are very interesting on the
tradition. But my question to you is what does Vayu Siddhi mean?
David Garrigues: Well,
for one, so Siddhi, that means power or – so if you're a siddha, it means
you're a master, you've got – you have power. And Siddhis are kind
of classic in yoga. There's like the eight – they're kind of magical
powers, they're thought of, like being able to grow small or become invisible
or materialize things.
Claudia Altucher: I
like that one. Become invisible. I love it. I
want it [Laughs].
David Garrigues: Yeah [Laughs]. But
also there's a lot of different Siddhis and like one of my favorites is that
Mula Bandha, it gives you – it's said "Dardura Siddhi", which is…
Claudia Altucher: Translate
that. What?
David Garrigues: Yeah. So
if you practice Mula Bandha, remember, that's…
Claudia Altucher: What's
Mula Bandha? Because some of my audience may not have heard all
these terms before.
David Garrigues: Yeah. So
it's called the root lock. It means root lock. So it's an
internal energetic lock that you seal off the pelvic area. You kind
of energetically contain energy within your body. And that…
Claudia Altucher: In
more gross forms, you can feel it perhaps by tightening the perineum
slightly. I know it's not the perfect definition, but it's –
David Garrigues: Well,
that's...In
the physical way, it's a contraction of the pelvic floor, but in an energetic
way, it's a kind of sealing in of life force and it gives you – and physically,
movement wise, it gives you this kind of dynamism, a dynamic center to move
from and to be supported by. And so what a perfect – well, actually,
I'm sorry. One other thing. That it's also thought of as
a kind of rebound power. So the force of gravity hat goes downwards
and there's a kind of downward energy, they call it apana. And that
is in the body.
And
so the lock Bandha, the lock is a redirection of downward force up. So
it has this rebounding quality or a geyser going up, an energetic kind of
up-flowing against down-flowing energy.
And so the Dardura Siddhi is the result of Mula Bandha. You get this power called the frog leap power [Laughs]. Like it's a leaping of a frog.
And so the Dardura Siddhi is the result of Mula Bandha. You get this power called the frog leap power [Laughs]. Like it's a leaping of a frog.
Claudia Altucher: Internally? You
mean I would start leaping like a frog externally or do you mean…
David Garrigues: In
the energy.
Claudia Altucher: Energy.
David Garrigues: Power.
Claudia Altucher: Yeah. So
the Vayu Siddhi is using this sort of rebounding of the lower energies, the
energies that want to go out, that maybe when misconstrued, it would be sort of
sexual energy used wrong or earthy things and sort of taking it up. Am
I getting this right?
David Garrigues: No. No.
Claudia Altucher: No.
David Garrigues: Just
wait 'cause I haven't even actually said that Vayu Siddhi is yet.
Claudia Altucher: I'm
sorry. I'm sorry.
David Garrigues: We're
still talking about this funny – it's a funny one to me 'cause to me, the ones
– I kind of laugh because the Siddhis normally – to become invisible, come
on. Or to material things. And it's not real. Like,
they're – and there's a lot of Charlatans, actually, yogis that do that. They
have a trick for materializing something, but it's not real. And so
I just love – but it doesn't take away from that Siddhis are real. That
this power is very real and important. And that's why I like the
frog leap power, that it's very humble. It's just humble. But
I'm sorry. I've kind of gotten off track. So the Vayu
Siddhi, what it means, though, Vayu – prana, the word prana, it means life
force. All right? And it's a big word. It's
very kind of hard to translate into English, but it's the energy behind
everything in the universe. Everything that takes a form that has a
birth, a life and a death, the energy that is the source of that is called
prana.
And
then inside the body when prana gets inside the body so from the layer of skin
inwards, they call it – it gets named Vayu. All right? And
Vayu is – the word means to blow. And it's the name for the Vedic
god. And the Vedics were the most ancient sacred texts of the Aryan tribes
that brought the kind of Hindu religion to India. And they were
element-worshipping people. So that the gods of the Vedas were like
elemental forces. And Vayu's the wind. And so – and then
all of those elemental forces get internalized, so inside the body it becomes
breath. So Vayu's a symbol of breath. Ah, it's such a
beautiful image. And of that elemental force.
And
so in yoga, by breathing and by working with those internal locks, you learn to
direct that internal life force, to direct it. And like what you
were saying, that sexual energy like libido, it can be used so wrong, so
unconsciously and un-directly. And so that – but yoga is partly
learning how to direct your life force and particularly to create consciousness
and a spiritual identity and awareness. And so Vayu Siddhis is to
master the Vayus, to master those – the prana inside you and particularly through
breathing. And so that's the title of that book. To me, I
just love the idea of mastering that life force for a spiritual realization.
Claudia Altucher: And
it's very profound the way you describe it because there's so many layers to
it. Accessing it, realizing where perhaps you're wasting the energy
and harnessing it through the breath, which is what the fourth limb proposes. But
my question is – and perhaps – why did you choose to call the book this and not
something like, for example, "Master The Energy Of The Breath" or
something in English, say, for example?
David Garrigues: I don't know. I know the reason why is because – it wasn't a
good marketing decision. I still have several boxes of
that book in my basement.
Claudia Altucher: Well,
hopefully people will get interested now. I'm really hoping 'cause
it's a great book.
David Garrigues: Yeah. And
because the content of the book is very…
Claudia Altucher: Amazing.
David Garrigues: Yes. And
so useful. And it's just a nice volume. It's packed with
information. But the reason that I did it was because I love that
word, those words, and they describe what that book is helping you to
become. And there really is – to me, every Sanskrit word is a – it's
a mantra. Remember what that – it's a mind instrument. And
the corresponding English word does not do it justice. It's not the
same. And just by repeating – if you think of it as Vayu Siddhi,
eventually you won't even want to translate it into English. It'll
just – Vayu is Vayu. Just like when you speak English, you don't
think – or your native language, you don't think of what the word means. You
know what it means. And so if you use Sanskrit enough, that happens
to you too. And then you have a different reference for what it is.
Claudia Altucher: I
have to say I love the sound of Sanskrit. It definitely has
something really magical in it. I think it's one of the oldest
languages of the world. And so I like the title. I just
thought maybe it would leave some people out of the wonderful contents of the
book. So I'm glad we clarified that and hopefully…
David Garrigues: I
do think about making another edition of it and changing it into English just
to make it more accessible to people 'cause I am – it is a concern of mine that
it doesn't reach as many people as it could simply because of things like that,
like a title that they won't necessarily relate to. But I will say,
Claudia, that I really – it's important to me that we don't leave behind the
language of yoga in trying to make things accessible because it really will not
be the same world the day it's triangle pose instead of Utthita Trikonasana or
– exactly. Mastery of breathing or mastery of energy instead of Vayu
Siddhi. That's an important thing that should never happen. That
it really needs to – the language of yoga is so important.
Claudia Altucher: Yes,
I agree. I agree. And it takes on a whole different
meaning and ring to it. I agree. I've been getting into
the Sanskrit slowly, I'm not quite there, and I'm loving it, especially the
repetitions of mantras is very interesting. Now, you have – talking
of the repetition of mantras and Sanskrit, you are a very devoted yogi. You
chant and you do kirtan or devotional singing. You play
instruments. You're a full-blown musician. And I have to
say I couldn't sit in one of your sessions without crying. Is it
because I'm a sissy? 'Cause no one else was crying. I
just couldn't help it. Someone takes over me and I get really – it sends me to
places and sadness and things. Why is that?
David Garrigues: Oh,
man. You're not alone in that. No. And that is
part of the reason that I was attracted to the chanting and to kirtan and this
– there's something so – it takes you to this emotional place.
Claudia Altucher: It
does.
David Garrigues: And
it opens you up. And that's partly its design too that it's meant to
work on you that way, to open you up and to – it has both. It has
all this sadness, this kind of deep grief that's inside that doesn't get let
out and that needs that, needs release, but it's also the incredible joy too
and some kind of – for lack – of like a finding of home or something very deep
and important and meaningful to you and the happiness that comes with that.
Claudia Altucher: That's
very interesting. I haven't gotten to the joy part. I'm
hoping I will. For me it seems to be just [laughs] sadness
and tears, but I'm glad to know there is another side to it, that you can get
to a joyful place. That's –
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: – [laughs] very
interesting.
David Garrigues: Yeah. And
to me – I've also spent a lot of time in India and the classical vocal music is
just some of the most beautiful music. Period. And the
most kind of emotionally evocative music that I've – by far that I've ever
encountered. And in the whole range of emotions. If you –
I've gotten – seen many concerts and they're – it's just amazing what emotion
comes and is expressed.
Claudia Altucher: Yes. And one
thing I would say on that is that I find it's very different, for me at least,
when I hear a recording, which are great, as opposed to hearing it live. So
when you're with a group of people and, say, you're playing that wonderful
instrument you play, it looks like a piano with an accordion, and it's a
different state that you go when you ______ a live sort of devotional
chanting.
David Garrigues: Yeah. No
question. Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: Totally. Another
shocking thing that you said recently, shocking to me, you came out – Joy
apparently goes out for walks with you in Philadelphia and she asks you
questions and then she writes about them, and I'm very grateful for her for
doing that because then we get another access into a great teacher's
mind. And you were talking about how yoga really is not meant to
heal people physically or psychically. It's really a
spiritual practice. And then you clarify that's kind of after a
couple of years, not necessarily in the – but do you care to comment on
that? How do you mean? Because for me it was very healing
at the body level, for example.
David Garrigues: Yeah. Well, no, I know. It's
a very incomplete discussion on that piece, and it's hard to have a complete
discussion about it, but really what I'm saying is, for one, you can't separate
those. That's an arbitrary mind distinction that – the body, the
mind, the spirit. So we got to be clear that it's not really
distinguishable like that, but it's more for a conversation purpose
and it's really saying – what I'm saying is that you have to be clear about
your intention. And it's not – and it's true that when you –
especially when you start something, you're not – you're gonna be clear later,
maybe more clear about why you're doing it or what it's for. And so you
just see a lot of people attempting to – I don't know. To use yoga
like a sport, for instance, and it's not a sport.
And
you will – and I'm just saying that you can harm yourself if you treat it that
way, if you treat it like an athletic exercise, like a –
Claudia Altucher: Yeah,
you definitely – especially in the ashtanga yoga system, right? Because
it's so intense.
David Garrigues: So
intense. And it's just not – but that really isn't what it was meant
for. And that doesn't mean – you can always use things different
than they were meant for. I think a lot of invention actually comes
from that successful invention or applying one thing in a new way. But
the best part – and maybe it's a personal opinion to me. It's just
that the best part of yoga is the spiritual part, the part that – you do the
Asanas because – to realize internal truth about yourself. You don't
do it because you want – the same way you would do it, I don't know, to run for
a time or to – I don't know.
Even
like gymnastics, like to win a meet or something. It's not really
about that. But also, it's more than that. I don't
know. It's a hard – it's interesting you're bringing this one up
because I looked at that again. Just yesterday I had started to and
I was like, "No, this doesn't quite get at it." And it's
more about your intension.
Claudia Altucher: Yeah. I
think that's the point of it.
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: Because
it had me thinking long and hard, and I believe in the beginning, we don't
really know what we're doing that much in yoga. You start for
whatever reason. I started 'cause I wanted to meet a cute guy. Ridiculous. But
then it gets to you and then you start seeing things. And so I can
see how what you say is true. It gets you to the center of
you.
David Garrigues: Yeah. And
I was also saying that – just, for instance, take the psychology part. If
you've got really deep psychological things going on that could be triggered by
many things, by your past, by something that's happened more recently, but –
and then there's a lot of unconscious things going on and like neuroses or
compulsion, addiction, things like that and then you try to get to your mat to
work that out every day. And to me, I'm just saying that that – it
can do something, but it's not really the purpose of yoga and it's probably not
as effective as going to a therapist or working on it in a more verbal way or
in a more behavioral way. And so that's the kinda thing I was
talking about in that.
And
that – but I was also saying, though, that if you do go to your practice as
devotion, as prayer, then – I don't know. You got me on this. This
one we would actually have to have a separate podcast 'cause it's a big one.
Claudia Altucher: It's
a big one. I agree with that. Absolutely [Laughs]. Yes.
David Garrigues: But
it's a very interesting one. It's one of the most interesting topics
because it really is about like what you're saying. You got healed
from yoga and…
Claudia Altucher: But
it happened sort of – there were other things too. I did go to – I
had psychological trauma. I come from one of the most traumatic
situations – well, not really. Ninety-nine percent of the people do,
but – and yoga helped me, but it wasn't the only thing. I also went
to a therapist, I also – you still have to do the work. You can't
expect really the practice of yoga to fix everything [Laughs]. _______. And
it's true that the purpose is integration or finding – going in into the Vayu
and into the center of you, the silence, things that…
David Garrigues: Yeah.
Claudia Altucher: –
come in after you practice. But I'll definitely take you up on
another podcast to talk more about this. I would love that [Laughs].
David Garrigues: Yeah. Because
it can heal – it can be a physically-healing practice, but it also
cannot. Think about it. Lotus, taking your leg behind
your head, extreme backbends. They're
not necessarily the best thing that the basic person is going to do for their
health. And on one hand, they increase range of motion and bring
strength and flexibility, but when you apply ego to it and then you get – you
start to get a lot of ambition about that this is really important to do and
competition, then you have a recipe for problems. And that's not
physical healing. That is danger.
Claudia Altucher: I
think you got to the core there. It's like when the ego comes in and
then the intention gets – it switches.
David Garrigues: Yes
Claudia Altucher: Suddenly
it's not about finding center. Suddenly it's about can I show off?
David Garrigues: And
also, can I compensate. Can I be like – if I can do this, then I'm
good. If I could do lotus, then I would be okay. But it's
like, no, that's wrong thing. That's not what lotus is for [Laughs].
Claudia Altucher: Absolutely.
David Garrigues: But
it's true that lotus can bring wellbeing, but only if all the conditions are
right or if your body is ready and all this.
Claudia Altucher: It
takes time, it takes practice, but yes, it's a very interesting topic. Let
me ask you about another book you have coming up. I read you're
writing a book on the Sun Salutations and Surya Namaskara.
David Garrigues: It's kind of part of a bigger book that is going to be about
the – well, it's going through the series. So it will be – it starts
with the Surya Namaskara and it's gonna have standing poses, et cetera into the
primary and the finishing and then hopefully second. And, yeah, it's
kind of ambitious in a way because you've – when you were – did we do that real
breakdown of Surya Namaskara in the class that you came? You didn't
–
Claudia Altucher: No.
David Garrigues: –
we didn't do that ______ [Crosstalk]
Claudia Altucher: I
wasn't in that one.
David Garrigues: Well,
so I do a real analysis of Surya Namaskara.
Claudia Altucher: And
there is that much to it as to make a book? You look at it from
different perspectives or…
David Garrigues: Well,
you look at it from the – what I call it is the position. So there's
nine positions in the ashtanga Surya Namaskara. And each one of
those positions is an Asana, it's a yantra all in its own. So we – I
break that down. We explore what is that shape? And what are
the problems? And what are the objectives and things? And
then there's the transition into and out of and the gesture that takes you into
the position or brings you out. And then – so how to go about
those. And it's formidable. It's definitely a book. And
it also kinda has the setup – because the Surya Namasakara is the kind of
prototype. It sets up the work for all of the series.
Claudia Altucher: And
it has a lot in it, doesn't it?
David Garrigues: It
has a lot in it. And it has everything. So it has the
breathing, it has those opposing patterns that I talk about that arise on the
breath, which become the positions. And so it has the zero position,
which is the reference for all of the Asanas, and that's the central axis
that's revealed just in standing. And then it has – it introduces
you to the art of forward bending, so that's a whole category of Asanas. And
the art of back bending with the upward facing dog. So it really
does have everything in it.
Claudia Altucher: For
someone who's starting yoga right now, say they're listening to this podcast
and they're getting excited about the idea, is the Sun Salutations the place to
start?
David Garrigues: I
think it is. I
started there way back, I don't –
Claudia Altucher: That's
true.
David Garrigues: I really do think it's amazing. And it's a great way to start for
many reasons, but one is that if you were to do no other yoga besides that,
that's what I would recommend. Even ten minutes, fifteen minutes a
day of Sun Salutations is an incredible regime for your body, for both strength
and flexibility, for your breathing, for your – focusing your mind and even
it's a devotional thing. That's what – Surya is the Sun God and it's
the light of consciousness. And Namaskara is a bowing to that. And
so it's just very complete.
Claudia Altucher: Both
physically and symbolically. I like that. I like what you
just said there. That's very interesting. So I want to
ask you a bit of a deep question here, so hashtag deep, here we go [Laughs]. In
your many years of practice, what would you say is one thing that took you the
longest to understand?
David Garrigues: Whew. Wow. I
don't know.
Claudia Altucher: To
me, for example, understanding that the poses, contained within them, the
intelligence took me a long time. I thought it was just
exercise. And to finally get a glimpse of how powerful they are was
a big insight.
David Garrigues: Gosh. I
don't know. I'm getting stumped here, Claudia. What's
taken the longest to learn? I came across this poem
recently that's kind of scary how dismal it is, but it speaks to something really
honest to me about it, about the practice of yoga, and basically, the guy says,
"I went ahead and I dove into the waters seeking the fish of
faith." So seeking faith. "And my net was
devotion and that net got torn to shreds and all I found was some shells and
some petty jealousies and some obscure dirt." That was the
poem.
Claudia Altucher: That's
amazing.
David Garrigues: Yes. And
it was so honest. And this is a yogi poet, somebody that's really
devoted and feeling he applied all of his devotion and he still came up with
not – he didn't catch the fish of faith. And it's easy to – faith
can come like a shallow faith or a kind of – one that doesn't have a lot of
backup of behavior. But to back it up with behavior, real faith of
what is this yoga for real and living that and your behavior shows how much
faith you have. Not your – how much talk you have. And so
I still think that's the hardest lesson is to know intellectually. And
it becomes clearer and clearer as you practice and then as a teacher, but then
to live it and to be it, to just be there and behave that way. That
near-death car experience, in that moment, you're just so close, you know what's
important. It's so clear. But then two hours later it's
dimmer.
And
so to keep – to really – gosh, it's so hard to – it's so hard. And
it's worse being all involved in yoga and still know that it's not – it hasn't
taken root to the degree that it can or want to.
Claudia Altucher: That's
beautiful. That's really, really nice. So, David, where
can people find your workshops coming up and your book?
David Garrigues: Well,
my website – I'm trying to launch a new website. That has been
trying to happen for about a year and it's right – gonna happen. And
so – but it'll be the same URL. It's Davidgarrigues.com. And
the one – the present website has been there for a long time and it's possibly
a little bit hard to navigate. And the new one's going to be much
easier. But the old one will be there 'til the new one's up, which
should be within – I would – hopefully within two weeks or a month, but that's
where you can find my workshops and there's a store with the products . And
I also have another book that's coming sooner than the one that you were
referring to.
Claudia Altucher: Oh,
how did that go past me? What is that? Tell me.
David Garrigues: That
one Joy has really put together. She's edited a collection of my
writings that have been on my blog and also with some new interviews that – one
is this kind of series that we're doing of what's it like to practice in your
20s and your 30s. And the 20s and the 30s are in this book. And
then later there will be the 40s and 50s. And it doesn't mean that
somebody that's 50 can't benefit from reading the 20s.
Claudia Altucher: Of
course.
David Garrigues: Yeah. And
so it's kind of a collection of writings. It's called "Ashtanga Yoga Maps And Musings".
Claudia Altucher: Oh,
in English.
David Garrigues: In
English. That one will be within one month. Before
Christmas that will be – that one's done. It's all arranged and just
kind of headed to the final…[Note From The Editor It will Be Coming Up Soon - March or April 2015]
Claudia Altucher: That's
wonderful. Will we be able to find that in Amazon? Or is
that through your website as well?
David Garrigues: Probably
– you will be able to find it in Amazon, but not right away. I would
think that it – at first it'll be on my website and then as soon as we get all
those kind of channels downloadable and stuff available, then it'll be
available there too.
Claudia Altucher: Excellent
because this will probably come out in January or so, I'm thinking, the way
it's coming. So then it will be there for people to go ahead and
just look at it.
David Garrigues: Yes
Claudia Altucher: Which
is wonderful. And you're on Twitter as well @DavidGarrigues?
David Garrigues: Yep. I'm
not sure of my – Joy does all of this. Sorry [Laughs]. [Note: Yes he is @DavidGarrigues]
Claudia Altucher: Thank
God for Joy [Laughs].
David Garrigues: Thank
God for Joy [Laughs]. That's right.
Claudia Altucher: Well,
I really appreciate that you took an hour. I know you're incredibly
busy. You're jumping from workshop to workshop. So I'm
very grateful that you came to the workshop – to the podcast, David.
David Garrigues: Yes. Thank
you for having me, Claudia. It was a pleasure. And any
time. I'll do it again if you're ever interested _______.
Claudia Altucher: Oh,
you're in for it. Wonderful [Laughs].
[Music Begins]
Presenter: That's all for the Yoga Podcast. If
you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review in iTunes and visit the
Yogapodcast.com for more interviews. Until next time, keep it real.